Ladies and Gentleman; Let the shit storm begin

[webdominatrix]

I have been working on a "serious" post for about two weeks now. It will be long. It has required a little bit of research and comparative study. I hope to have it posted by the end of the week. Forgive me for not participating for the the past month or so and then all of a sudden showing up with this, but I believe that everyone here will like it for the most part and be able to draw their own conclusions and hopefully share their opinion on the matter too. As a matter of fact, I look forward to it.


-WD

[IDBUG]

I look forward to it, too.

[Sonia]

Now you've got me intrugied! I most definately look forward to reading it!

[IDBUG]

still interested...

[webdominatrix]

Okay I suck. I haven't had time to write a draft or anything. Basically I was putting together a paper on the similarities between Scientology and ICECAP programs. Not a big shocker. The thing is, when I was reading some of the interviews that Sea-Tac "employees" gave, it made me wanna puke. One example:

When a woman in her mid-twenties, who was now part of the elite Sea-Tac employed around various "centers" throughout the country was asked if it bothered her that she hadn't seen a movie in five years or if she wondered what current music sounded like responded with, "No. That stuff is fine for others, but just not for me. We're not slaves, I enjoy working here. I mean what else am I gonna do?"

Shit gave me the chills. L. Ron Hubbard and Bob Meehan were cut from the same con cloth, cept Bob's a little too Deliverence to make it consumable for the masses. I'm sorry this is kind of a half assed version of what I wanted to present, but I didn't want anyone to think I forgot and for some reason I think it's it's important that we talk about it. If we're all kinda pissed at Bob and his ilk, why not direct some anger towards David Miscavaige or boycott albums/tv shows or movies that feature Scientologists? Or is that a form of discrimination? These are people that probably don't even kinow they're in this environment, kinda like the people that still work for Bob. But does that make their current actions any more or less acceptable for us?

I am really interested in discussing this further with you guys.

[Sonia]

Hooray! I've been waiting to see what you've been cooking up WD! ;D

I honestly don't know that much about Scientology, other than their stance on medication, which is parrelle to Bob's ideas. I already don't pay to see Tom Cruise/John Travolta/Kristie Alley movies, but that is based strictly on my taste in movies, and none of them have done anything worth seeing in a long time (though I did rent War of the Worlds because I was a huge fan of the tapes when I was a kid, and all I have to say about the movie is it's two hours of my life that I'll never get back).

I don't think boycotting them can really be considered discrimination when the reasons behind it have nothing to do with hate for the sake of hating. They are active members of what, from my understanding, is a destructive cult. And us being former cult members would have good reason to not want to contribute to the sickness, knowing full well where the money these preformers are profiting from goes. There were a great deal of Jewish people who refused to see Passion of the Christ, not due to intolerance, but because they didn't want to show their support to a film they thought portrayed them in a negitive light. I see that as sort of the same situation, not offering support.

The Scientologist might see it as a form of discrimination, because they think Scientology is a legit religon, but is it descrimination if what you are descriminating against is their descrimination? Of course I personally feel religon in general has planted it's roots in condeming everyone who doesn't buy their beliefs while the kindness and compassion of their teachings take a backseat to anyone who doesn't conform, but that is another topic altogether. I don't listen to Styx (yeah, that was a really hard one to give up on ), so I don't see why it would be any different for another cult.

I can't really say if I find them more or less acceptable based on my own experiances. Even the issue of current ICECAP employees is a hard one to call for me personally. I think on some level there needs to be some responsiblity for actions taken, but then how much can be attributed to brainwashing? It's difficult for me to reconcile the two without feeling like a hypocrite, especially since there was a period in my life I was angry at people for doing to me what I did to others.

After finding the other site it became less about specific people and more about the concept of the group as a whole, and I also had to ask myself if I was more willing to forgive people and let the brainwashing excuse fly because I wanted it to apply to myself as well or if having concrete evidence of brainwashing was enough to accept that as the reason why everything happened the way it did. There were things I did in the past that I'm not proud of today, but I was back then, I'm still not sure how much of it was planted by the group and how much of it was just me sucking as a person or being a teenaged asshole, and I don't know if I honestly want the answer to that. The fact is that I'm a completely different person today, and just being able to distiguish that is enough for me.

I think the Scientologist, and the people still working for Bob, have to be aware that something is wrong. I think they know it's wrong, but their in so deep that the fear of leaving behind the wrong is all consuming. Much like many women being abused know it's wrong for their spouse to hit them, but when they finally make it out I'm not going to belittle them for not leaving sooner. At the same time I probably wouldn't hand them a stack of cash if they said they were perfectly happy in their marriage and just needed a little money to buy their adoring husband another six-pack (not saying all abusive men drink, just using that as an example). But I would give them money if they were looking to use it as a way out.

So I suppose as of right now I don't consider the scientologist, or people working for Bob, acceptable in their current situations, but if they were to leave I probably wouldn't knock their past actions, because it wouldn't be right to accept my own changes, but not theirs. Of course if they haven't shown any sign of change I don't think they should get a pat on the back either, leaving a cult takes more than just physically removing yourself from the environment. If Tom Cruise went on the Today show and announced his resignation from Scientology, but then continued to lay into people who chose to take anti-depressants for postpartum depression, then I would still say he's full of shit, and I would still consider him an active cult member. People who leave the group, but still do all the weirded out group shit are doing the same thing Bob did by retiring, leaving but not really.

I'll do some checking up on Scientology so I can get into that side of the discussion more, but this is a really interesting topic and I look forward to diving into it.

**Also excuse my third grade spelling errors, I've become too accustomed to using spellcheck.

[webdominatrix]

Holy macaroni Sonia, you just rocked my socks. I have been struggling alot with the idea of how can I be mad about what people did in the group if I acted in that manner myself but am able to forgive myself for past transgressions due to a change that I see within. That's some Descartes type shit right there. Just kidding, but yes, please read more and let me know what you think. The similarities are just so striking. Rolling Stone did an article on it about two months ago. See if you can find it online. It was a landmark interview for the access it gave.

[mzdiagnosed]

here's a link:
www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/9363363/inside_scientology?rnd=1143643712690&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.1212

[Kata6]

I also don't know that much about scientology, other than what I've seen talked about on here or on South Park...I don't get out much.

That article in Rolling Stone was very interesting, thanks for posting it MZD. Very informative for those of us who don't know alot about it. And I'm getting chills at some of the similarities there are between scientology and our former cult. Especially the part about the Auditing thing..boy if that doesn't sound like some of the purposes I went through, I don't know what does. Holy crap there are a lot of similarities. I really had no idea. Scary ass stuff.

[Sonia]

Thanks WD and thanks for posting the link mzdiagnosed!

I did read the article earlier this morning, and I totally agree with Kata about the auditing sounding like purpose. I pulled a bunch of stuff from the article that hit pretty close to home.


Scientology's publicity materials portray the Sea Org as similar to the U.S. Marines: "The toughest, most dedicated team this planet has ever known," according to one recruiting brochure. "Against such a powerful team the opposition hasn't got a chance."
I'm assuming the opposition is everyone who isn't a Scientologist, but it's not really clearly defined either, very tricky of them. And "us vs. them" is laid out right there, with the idea that being an "us" is better than being a "them." One thing that I noticed in the article is that it's said Scientology "borrows" ideas from other religons and incorperates them into their own beliefs (or twists them to suit their purposes, which ever way you look at it). This is pretty much what Bob did with the 12 steps, but calling Bob's 12 steps and AA's 12 steps similar is a large stretch at best. Someone looking at it for it's worth might think they are basically the same thing, but those of us that were in know how the second step was used to control every aspect of our lives. So it makes me wonder what principles of Buddism and Western religons are falsely represtened to keep Scientology members in line?


The Sea Org has often been portrayed as isolated, almost monastic; members are rarely allowed to see films, watch TV or read mainstream magazines. "Are we devoted? Yes. Sequestered? No," says Fries, who married a fellow Sea Org member. "I go out into the world, I talk to people out in the world, I definitely live a very full life. This isn't a priesthood. I mean, if it were a priesthood, do you think I'd work here? It would just be so unhip."
Replace Sea Org with ICECAP, and "unhip" with "ungnarly" and it sounds just like the counselors that spoke in the Riverfront times article. It's being sold as cool, and a better way of life. I also noticed that they went out of their way get celebrities in, much like Bob, even though I have to say that Tom Cruise is a much bigger coup than Tommy Shaw. And Tom Cruise is already a high level member, like Tommy Shaw is/ or was on the board of directors, and I don't believe for a second that it's because he's just so damn likable. He's got money to burn, and he's being taken for a ride. His ex-publisist is also a Scientologist, which is probably why he showed his crazy face to the world, it almost makes me feel sorry for him, almost.


"Look around," says Davis. "People are out here busting their butt every day to make a difference. And one guy who leaves because he wants to go to the movies gets to characterize the whole organization? That sucks."

Almost exactly why we couldn't go to concerts, listen to certain music, watch certain movies, and if we left it was because we're the idiots that put movies, music, ect., above our spiritual wellbeing. We weren't willing to do whatever it took, which is just more controlling bullshit. A few of them said they've seen a handful of movies over the years, anyone want to place bets on them all being Tom Cruise or John Travolta movies?


But some people, the officials admit, refuse to be handled. What happens to them? "Then I guess not believing in Scientology means more to them than not seeing their family," Davis says.

This is just sad. The guy comes right out and says that it's their beliefs or their families, and he wonders why Scientology gets so much criticsim. This is the number one charcteristic of a cult, threatening people to conform or they'll lose everything they hold dear. It's just way too familiar.


Paul James is not this twenty-two-year-old man's real name. He is the son of established Scientologists, blond and blue-eyed, with the easy smile and chiseled good looks of a young Matt Damon. He has had no contact with the church since he was seventeen. "I honestly don't know how people can live psychotically happy all the time," Paul tells me over coffee one afternoon at his small, tidy house outside Los Angeles. "Or thinking that they're happy," he adds with a grin. "I'm talking about that fake-happiness thing that people make themselves believe."

This is exactly like the group, enthusiastic at all times, and all tears must be hidden behind the guise of being grateful. It was all manufactured happiness, which was worse than the drugs, at least when I was high I was expecting the come down and knew it was false.


Discussion, as some academics like Kent note, isn't encouraged in Scientology, nor in Scientology-oriented schools. It is seen as running counter to the teachings of Scientology, which are absolute. Thus, debate is relegated to those in the world of "Wogs" -- what Scientologists call non-Scientologists. Or, as Hubbard described them, "common, ordinary, run-of-the-mill, garden-variety humanoid."
Wogs, normies, what's the difference? And not being able to question the groups teaching, but the outside world is up for judgement.


"Scientology has a plausible explanation for everything they do -- that's the genius of it," says Sara. "But make no mistakes: Scientology is brainwashing."

The group gets away with the same. For every question of why things are run the way they are there is always an answer, immediatly followed by a strong suggestion that questions are not welcome. I remember for the first Styx concert I was pulled aside and told what to say if someone asked why Styx was okay, but other concerts weren't. I had to be told by a counselor how to justify that, just in case I was too stupid to figure it out myself. They plan all their answers in advance and sell them in a "this is the way things are" package. Generally if you were good enough with indimidation then no further explaination would be needed because the fear would keep them from asking for a further explaination.

Anyway, when reading this article I got really pissed about the fact that they received tax-exempt status, they are basically being called a real religon by our government. They are brainwashing people, stealing their money, and now they get to do it for free, every penny that comes in goes right into their pockets. It makes me sick.

Another thing I noticed is the sea captin uniform. I thought it was really odd, but then I had to wonder, is it any more odd than program tees and stonewashed jeans? I was thinking that they had to feel ridiculous wearing that crap, but it's probably as normal to them as a "Let Go Let God" T-shirt was to me. Plus I valued the word of a man who considers the skullet to be the height of fashion, so who am I to judge.

From what the article said Scientology has been around for longer than ICECAP, so I'm starting to wonder if maybe Bob pulled his ideas from this and applied them to drug treatment, something that is almost as profitable as religon. The way they run things is way too similar for me not think there is a connection somewhere. I know a lot of cults funcution in the same fashion as others, and they share enough characteristics to have a check list, but this has more in common with ICECAP than what can be found on a "Are you in a cult?" check list. The preppie cloths, the celebrity endorsements, the you don't have to be here if you don't want to mantra, along with all the other things mentioned.

They pass themselves off as being just like everyone else, except better. They can still funcution to a certain degree in mainstream society without people pointing fingers, much like we could. Even Tom Cruise only recently went nuts, but he's been in it for much longer than his crazy phase has shown. I saw a Dateline special a few weeks ago about a woman escaping a cult somewhere in Utah, but they were completly cut off from society, had to wear old fahioned clothes, had to marry waaaay older men that already had other wives, and a bunch of bizarre crap that we never had to go through. We stayed mainstream enough to not scare people wanting to join away, we sold a product that people wanted to buy, and we did it by selling how normal and how much like them we were.

Maybe Bob saw how profitable Scientology was, and paid attention to the way they did things, but he did it on a smaller scale so he could still make a lot of money without getting all the negitive press about it. I don't really know, but for some reason I think we have more in common with them than we know, just my thoughts on it.

[webdominatrix]

That's exactly what I was trying to say, but was too lazy to do it. Thanks Sonia. I told you guys, the similarities are striking and scary.

[mzdiagnosed]

I am only half way throught the article which is excellent. Thanks for telling us about it. It's thick and worth the time it takes to read,
I can't help but feeling that Bob just isn't sophisticated enough to pull off the stunt but the tendencies and motivation are strikingly familiar to those of LRH.
I have to say that putting Hollywood peeps on the fast track to enlightment is where I most find that similarity. How many times did we see the cushy and obseqious treatment of anyone that stood to give the program good PR just because of who they were (who they were born to) or because of how much money they had etc?
I do have to say that in some way the article makes me very sad. Sad that I lack the vulnerability to take such a leap of faith and say with meaning that I believe in something so far fetched and invented. I remember the time when a shoe was good enough or the word of a few people constituted a "higher power" or "God's will."
Heavy sigh. I mostly pity those people, especially the ones who were born to it. I agree that we should have a certain amount of forgiveness for ourselves for being duped and swindled out of our childlike trust and for believing that others would benefit from the message.

[christinev]

LMAO @ bob what a loser

Yes I too am shocked at the similarities, probably endless.

A while back I googled 'scientology critics' and really was shocked that anyone would actually believe any of that get to the next level alien crap. When looking subjectively from the outside we see it's junk.
I am interested in learning more..........
cv

[Kata6]

Wow, Sonia, thanks for that. I noticed the similarities as well, but thanks for going through the work to type it all out. To me what's interesting is that the same exact cult tactics were used in the group, but Scientology has made it more official...as far as labeling people possible trouble..practically having to wear a scarlet letter on their shirt or having them sign something to be excommunicated. Our cult did the same thing, it was just more informal.

I think whats so scary about Scientology is how long it's been around and how SERIOUS they are about keeping things secret...as far as making former members sign what amount to confidentiality agreements and then suing them if they break them...or suing anyone who talks badly about the organization. And obviously they have the funds to back it up.

Its so strange to think that once these people get to higher levels they beleive in things such as aliens and whatnot....but it's not all that different than some of the crap we were led to beleive....Joy can cure cancer....Time Travel.....ESP.....the list goes on about some of the crap the counselors were fed.

[Sonia]

Thanks WD and Kata! I love getting into this kind of thing so I sometimes get carried away. In college I actually use to love writting papers that involved pulling apart a novel or story and giving my own interpretation of things. My concentration was in creative writting, but I took a lot more literature classes for that reason. I'm glad you brought this to our attention WD, that article is worth reading and I think the more we learn about cults in general the more we can understand ourselves.

Kata, that is a really good point about the time travel garbage Bob and Joy sold the counselors. It seems like they both wait until people are on a higher level before they drag out the really crazy shit. Probably because they know it's bull so they have to wait until they have total control before they can pass it off with a straight face.

I think Bob might have tried to sue sites like this one and the other one, but it's too bad for him that he was stupid enough to record his sick ramblings. At least LRH kept out of the public eye all together. But LRH was smart, maybe not as smart as his followers believe him to be, but he was still an intelligent man. Evil geniuses are much scarier than just plain evil. I shudder to think what ICECAP could have been if Bob had been at all smart and/or educated. It's a good thing he discourages education and critical thinking of any kind, so thanks to him the program will never rise to the level that Scientology has.

Anyone else find it hilarious that LRH died of a stroke, then his followers said it was because he chose to leave his body? Who wants to die of a stroke? If I could seriously die at my choosing, I'd pick painlessly in my sleep, but different strokes for different folks.

They were also building this huge center for him, and he up and died before it was done. Nice of him to bascially give the finger to their work. And all that medication in his system, do as I say not as I do, so typical.